Message

From: Brian Holtz [brian@holtz.org]
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:22 PM
To: 'Joe Haik'
Subject: RE: ROFL

You would be proud of me. I read you webcite late night.

Really? It's hard to tell, because you don't here dispute a single fact or a single inference in it.

You should focus on the best that both sides have to offer. I list my candidates from both sides at http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/ChristianityIndex.html.

I am trying to be nice to you.

I can tell, because in this email you stopped using "lie" to describe my writings. :-)

I don't think it's healthy to have that mind set and have so many conspiracy theories.

I'm not sure what "conspiracy theories" you think I endorse. I in fact reject the popular atheist conspiracy theories that Jesus never existed, or that the gospels were intentional fabrications. The only conspiracy I suggest is that one or two disciples duped the apostles and gospel authors by moving the body, but I say it's equally likely that the body was moved innocently.

By contrast, Christians need to posit a set of massive conspiracy theories that cause

the academic discipline of biology to reject the alleged evidence for Creationism,
the academic discipline of history/archaeology to reject the alleged evidence for the supernatural claims of the Bible,
all rational believers in Judaism and Islam to reject the alleged evidence for your parents' conflicting brand of Abrahamic religion,
etc.

I personally detest conspiracy theories. Do a Google Groups search on me in alt.conspiracy.jfk and you'll find over 300 postings by me shooting down conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory lists scores of conspiracy theories, and I don't see a single one listed there that I believe in. I don't even buy the conspiracy theories listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_conspiracy_theory, with one caveat. We know from Christianity's own early texts that the formation of the New Testament canon was deliberately slanted towards a certain interpretation of Christianity. See http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html for details.

You keep listing things that are very improbable.

I invite you to name even one, and to explain why its probability is different from what I claim it is. The explanations I offer are orders of magnitude more probable that the myths offered by Christianity, as I succinctly summarize at http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/GospelProbabilities.html.

You need help. [..] I feel sorry for you. [ ..] for real, get some help. It can't be healthy. [..] Seriously, get help because you family will love you for it.

Instead of obsessively calling a "lie" (i.e. an intentional and thus conspiratorial deception) anything you disagree with, you now want to call me mentally unhealthy because I disagree with you. One of us imagines intentional deception and mental sickness in his opponent. The other diagnoses simple ignorance and patiently corrects every uninformed statement offered. Thus if one of us "needs help", it's clear who it is.

You 8 problems with christianity, are easily solved. Try using facts.

As I said, my document includes over 100 facts about your scriptures, citing chapter and verse. I'd be interested in any answer you might have to any of them, and in your alleged solutions to my eight objections.

Just trying to help. Give me credit for reading your cite, but man, get help.

I indeed give you credit for subjecting yourself to my arguments having only armed yourself with McDowell. That you keep coming back for more, and now are talking about "help" so repetitively, could itself be interpreted as a cry for help. If you truly want to evaluate the humanistic alternative to a faith derived from ancient parchments, then see

http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/affirmations.html

http://humanknowledge.net/Thoughts.html#WhatToDo

I in fact don't think you need any "help", whether human or divine. You just need to continue fearlessly seeking truth among all the available evidence. That you found and faced my arguments is a good sign. Keep doing stuff like that, and you'll be fine.