From: Brian Holtz [brian@holtz.org]
Sent: Sunday,
February 05, 2006 12:54 PM
To:
'marketliberal@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: Re: FW: making the LP
Platform safe for minarchism
[I'll delay posting this to the Minarchist
group for a few more days in order to slow the pace of my debates with Ireland,
whose efforts are too feeble and uninteresting to merit a quicker tempo of
rebuttal.]
Paul Ireland wrote:
BH> Can you give us a list of all the different
kinds of ownership, or do you just invent new ones when you're losing an
argument? <BH
PI> The highest and most
personal ownership of anything is that of our own body (including the organisms within
that body). <PI
This is an assertion, not an argument.
Can you cite any libertarian theorists who agree with your assertion that
ownership of one's body is fundamentally different than ownership of one's
property? And again: are these the only two forms of ownership you
recognize, or do you have some others you're not telling us about?
PI> Nothing inside the body of a
person has any rights. Not
even if it were a fully sentient being capable of communication begging
to be allowed to live.
<PI
Having successfully maneuvered you into this
corner, I'm perfectly content to rest my case on this particular
matter.
PI> Your bullshit claims
that a fetus and its host share a symbiotic relationship is another in your
never-ending stream of complete fabrications. A fetus does
absolutely nothing to contribute to the health of the host body. In fact
detracts from the health of the host.
<PI
Your ignorance of freshman biology is on
display yet again. The metric by which a biologist decides whether
symbiosis is parasitic, mutualist, commensalist, or amensalist is not "health",
but inclusive reproductive fitness. To correct your ignorance, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_fitness.
PI> I won't dignify your
appallingly thickheaded and nonsensical questions about putting a
baby (once it's born it's a baby instead of a fetus and it has rights)
back into the womb and killing
it. <PI
You call the question names because it
exposes the obvious flaws in your ethical precepts. Be sure to also put your
fingers in your ear and sing loudly when hearing such questions.
PI> Nor will anyone who has
been born ever be living inside the body of another person again. <PI
Are you claiming it is anatomically
impossible during a C-section for the infant to be placed
temporarily back inside the incision? If so, that would be consistent
with the record of biological ignorance you've established here with your
untutored claims about the fetus being a "parasite".
PI> Once someone is removed from a
body, they don't go back
in. <PI
Fertilized embryos are regularly inserted
into women's bodies. If you claim that seven days after fertilization the entity
has no rights when not inside a womb, but that at seven months it does have
rights when no longer in a womb, then you already agree with me that there is
some developmental threshold for personhood. Or do you think that the womb
has magical rights-creating powers, just as you apparently think that the
epidermis has rights-nullifying powers?
PI> Likewise your equally stupid
person involuntarily on a plane situation has no merits. If you
can't deal with real life and actual plausible situations, you're not worth
discussing anything with. <PI
If your ethical precepts can't handle a
simple concept like a person involuntarily finding himself on or inside someone
else's property, that's hardly my fault. Rather than getting upset, you
should consider trading in your precepts for a non-defective set (like mine)
that can handle any question thrown at them.
PI> You're just an insane
jackass who lacks social skills and who thinks repeating the same tired bullshit over
and over makes him the winner as if
being the last person saying something means you've won a debate. Every single point you've pathetically tried to
make has blown up in your face when destroyed by
me.<PI
I'll repeat the challenge that you ignored
the last time you whined like this. I
challenge you to set up with me a pair of
opposing documents of fixed size composed only of excerpts from our debate so
far, and to refrain from further debate on this topic between us outside these
documents. I'm perfectly happy to stand on my record in this debate. Can you say
the same thing? And if you don't accept it,
then stop whining that I'm more disciplined than you are about systematically
and inexorably rebutting all criticism sent my
way.
PI> You have literally nothing
relevant, realistic, or remotely factual or interesting to say on this topic <PI
LOL. I challenge you to find a
single person who's willing to say publicly that he's read our entire
abortion debate here and still agrees with your ridiculous statement
above.
Brian Holtz