From: Brian Holtz [brian@holtz.org]
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 11:24 AM
To: James Patrick Holding
Subject: RE: Christianity: arguments against; questions for


> Those are some pretty simplistic questions.

Well, the one about haircuts in heaven is a little silly, but only as
silly as the primitive Christian notion of having a physical body in
heaven. Assuming you don't share such a notion, I've now ommitted that
question.

The remaining questions are quite straightforward, and I understand if
they make you uncomfortable, but I would think that an open-minded and
intellectually honest Christian would be willing to face them.

> Did you by chance check any works of great Christian thinkers for
> answers? Augustinem Anselm, etc?

I'm pretty confident that none of the great Christian thinkers have
ever seriously addressed such questions (except for the one about the
justness of hell). Some Christian thinkers have of course theorized
vaguely about the nature of heaven and hell, but the point of my
questioning is to see how seriously and clearly Christians think about
the actual experience that they claim to believe they will be having
in only a few decades' time. I find it odd that there is so little
speculation (let alone agreement) about the nature of the place in
which they claim to believe they will be spending essentially all of
their conscious existence.

> If you're really serious I'll make an article out of these
> for my site.

I'll be surprised and pleased if you make a serious effort to address
each and every one of these questions. I of course would be happy to
answer any questions you might have in return. And if you're feeling
really brave, you might consider including a link to
http://humanknowledge.net in your article. :-)

> An inordinate number seem to be little more
> than plays on the emotions, however.

The questions simply explore a) the logical consequences of Christian
belief and b) certain hypotheticals that open-minded Christians cannot
deny are logically possible. I don't doubt that some of these
consequences and hypotheticals are uncomfortable or embarrassing for
Christians who are afraid to use their (allegedly God-given) gift of
reason, but you don't strike me as having such fear.


Here are the questions again, slightly reorganized.  Enjoy.

Compelling Evidence. If you believe that the evidence for your god is
compelling, how do you explain that it is not accepted by so many
otherwise reasonable people? Why do so many people claim that the
evidence for some other (incompatible) god is compelling? What other
thesis so important and compelling (e.g. heliocentrism, evolution)
defied general consensus for this long? In how many years do you
expect there will be a consensus for your position as widespread as
that supporting (say) heliocentrism? (Your answer must include either
include the word 'never' or a numerical year plus-or-minus a
confidence range.)

Unfalsifiability. What possible evidence would convert you to a
different revelation-based religion, like Zoroastrianism or Sikhism? 
What possible evidence would convert you to atheism? Is your theistic
theory unfalsifiable?

Dwindling Design. In the past, your god was used to explain the "gaps"
caused by the absence of a naturalistic understanding of physics,
astronomy, meteorology, agriculture, and physiology. Most of these
gaps began closing after 1500, but by 1850, there were still no
naturalistic explanations for the origin and diversity of life, the
mechanism of mind, and the origin of the universe itself. In 2000,
compelling naturalistic explanations already exist for the diversity
of life and the mechanism of mind, while outlines of naturalistic
explanations are being formed for the origins of life and the universe
itself. If by 2150 there exist naturalistic explanations in these four
areas that are as widely accepted as (say) heliocentrism, what
significant gaps in the universe's design will be left for your god to
explain?  Would you abandon theism if the Argument From Design lost
these last four major pillars?

Prophecy. If you believe that your holy book made non-trivial
prophecies that were later fulfilled, how do you explain that
professional historians deny any such prophecies were actually
recorded before the predicted event?

Nature of Hell. What is hell like? During my "eternal damnation", will
I be able to remember my mortal life as well as I can now?  Will I be
able to remember new things that I think of while in hell?  Will I
have access to writing materials or other means of recording my
thoughts?  Will I be able to communicate with a) people in heaven, b)
other people in hell, c) your devil(s), or d) your god(s)?  Will I be
able to learn of events on earth and elsewhere as they happen after my
death?  Will I be able to accurately keep time?

Nature of Heaven. What is heaven like? During your (presumed) "life
everlasting", will you be able to do the things I asked about Hell? 
If you are able to communicate with other citizens of heaven, will it
only be if they agree to do so?  Can you truly consider it paradise if
the celebrities there are snubbing you?  Can celebrities truly
consider it paradise if they have to talk to anybody who comes over to
their cloud?  If you are a remarried widower, will your two wives have
to share you, or will one of them have less bliss than the other?  If
you were mentally disabled or senile when you received life
everlasting, do you get an adult's mind?  If you were an infant or
child and get an adult's mind, what determines your personality?  Are
some people in heaven still smarter than others?  Will you understand
(or be able to learn) every principle of math and science?  Will you
know (or be able to learn) every fact of the history of you, your
loved ones, humanity, and the Earth in general?  Will you know Earth's
future, or be able to observe it as it happens?  Will others in heaven
know (or be able to learn) embarrassing things about your life?  Will
you be able to remember any sinful pleasures of your mortal life? 
Will your memory of your sins be wiped clean, or will you still have
shame?  Will you be able to play games (like chess) with other people
in heaven?  Will you ever lose?  Can you ever improve at such
pursuits?  Will you be able to take naps, and if so for what duration?
Will people ever have differing opinions, interests, or hobbies? Will
there be any possible way to create new knowledge or new art?

Justness of Hell. If,  when my first 100 trillion years of torment are
over, you happen to remember that a basically good person is just
beginning his torture essentially because he used his God-given gift
of reason, will you think "right on! you and Hitler are getting what
you deserved!"?  Or will you then even momentarily consider the
possibility that your god is less than perfectly just?

What if God quit?  Imagine your god "saw how great man's wickedness on
earth had become" [Gen 6:5] and decided to be rid of us. But instead
of drowning us all in a Flood, imagine that your god simply abandoned
us to the uncaring universe.  Imagine that he decided to leave us
alone and unmolested, the way all the wicked atheists thought we were
anyway.  Imagine too that he had firmly decided and announced that the
few not-quite-so-wicked people like you had zero hope of salvation,
and that upon men's natural bodily death he was going to uncreate
their souls. What would you do? What would be your goals and values?